America and Her Beloved Wars

Tonight I had a wonderful conversation with an old friend of mine about the history of American war profiteering. It really didn't start out as that, but rather mutated into a debate on American History, hidden war agendas, mislead public sentiment, and the future in relation to the past. I was just sharing my views on 9/11. A lot of people share the view that 9/11 was a bit too orchestrated and a bit too tidy to have been conincidence. I happen to be one of those good folks. This is what followed-

Beast:

For those unwilling to do the research..ask yourself this..Not one, but TWO planes, spaced a fairly significant time apart, were hijacked, went radio dead, and then flew into the most populated airspace in the country ...and we're NOT shot down before hitting a popular symbol of American Prosperity and Power? Really? If you believe that I've got some great Oceanside property in Nebraska for sale..real cheap..

Not to disrespect any families or friends hurt by this tragedy, but your pain and anger has been used against for financial and political gain. America has always used civilian deaths to start wars. 

WW1- transporting illegal arms on passenger ships. After being warned to stop, US continued. The sinking of the RMS Lusitania heralds US entry to war. WW2- Hawaii was seized (they had a queen, she was dethroned by us farmer request, look it up Queen Lili) as a means to watch for Asian invasion threats and secure pacific trade routes. Pearl harbor was key defense, monitoring constantly for Japenese Attack. On the morning of attack, key ships were called out of harbor or told not to return. American Tragedy, coupled with a stalled New Deal economy, pulls America into the war. Not the persecution of the Askenazi Jews. Not the bombings of US allies...just. our planned attack. 9/11 aka MiniWW3- see above..

AMW;

Wow. There are no words...just wow.

Beast:

 C'mon my Proud American Brotha..I know u got something to say..come wit it..lol

AMW:

First the world wars:

Both of those events happened. The Lusitania was sunk and Pearl Harbor was bombed. To suggest that the government used this in order to drag us to war is a stretch of epic proportions.The sinking of the Lusitania would be the closest to using civilians but it is not the ultimate reason we went to war. The president demanded and apology, declared the right of american passengers to travel where they wanted without threat of death, and an ultimatum that stated if it happened again, consequences would be felt. It happened again. Thus, war. Also...the administration was markedly against war. What would be the point to go to war?As for Pearl harbor, it is well documented that the entire thing was essentially a miscommunication on the part of the Japanese. Their formal declaration of war came an hour or so after the attack. Even still...diplomatic talks had broken down before the 7th so war appeared inevitable. Attacking a military base without a formal declaration of war seems like a good reason to retaliate.And finally...9/11. There weren't two planes...there were four. They didnt go radio dead, the hijackers said they were going back to the airport. And while there were multiple failures in intelligence and whatnot, the conspiracy that you're alleging would have involved thousands of people to pull off, not just the president and his whims. I don't like Bush either, but its just not logical or possible for that to have happened.

Beast:

One, it's not logic it's fact. 

Ww1 . The Lusitania was smuggling arms, as were many ships leaving America. This is fact. When it was discovered, warnings were issued to America to cease this practice. Look it up. To think that we went to eat for lack of an apology is the stretch. I understand that America being in the grips of reconstruction and still racked from the cost of rebuilding the infrastructure of the south, moving from relatively free labor, to needing to re-educate these farmers for industry would not seem like a good reason to not go to war,but the opposite is true. America has always benefitted greatly from war costs. We are one of the leaders in world arms design, manufacture, and direct sells. Illegally and legally, The most recent example is the muti million(billion?) dollar arm sells to Taiwan in there fight against China (our so-called ally, at very least lender) and our war commitment to Libya in the midst of THEIR civil war. WAR is big business for America, hence the roarin twenties, the baby boom, the 80s trickle down, the 90s insta-recovery, and the pending 20-- financial recovery

..it's just history not opinion. 

Ww2- the war was raging, people were being oppressed, the Germans, Italians, and Japanese were running rampant in the world. We were asked to help, we declined, our rather congress declined at a time when it was still somewhat a democratic nation. We had Americans abroad being killed. That was not enough to go to war. Again we were in the grips of economic downturn. The war, and it's documented, boosted the American economy in a way that it had not seen since the industrial revolution. Toys were melted to bullets, taxes were raised to support troops. Women began leaving the home to support the effort and work factory jobs. Immediately following our involvement the war was won. The economy benifitted so greatly that the baby boom and the beginnings of our consumer based modern economy began( aided by television and other technological advances of course). Again, this is not opinion but fact. As is the fact that most of the ships were operating on skeleton crews of only low ranking soldiers that morning, and that many of the most important warships that were scheduled to be there were not. Look it up sit, your intelligent enough to do so. 

9/11- I concede to the fact that your right, there were four planes. Four times the evidence of these ridiculous lies. All planes are equipped with gps monitoring. Hell, the bus I drive everyday is tracked to the point that they know what direction I'm facing and my mph even as low as 5 mph. Your telling me that just cause they said they were going back that they were believed? You honestly think that they're altitude was not setting off alarms somewhere? And for that matter, you think America would let the public seat of its military the Pentagon be attacked mid morning on broad daylight? To take it further, there was plane wreckage at all crash sites, save the pentagon..where did the plane go? No wreckage at all? No wing indentions, no luggage, no motors or tails, no seats? Go check the wreckage urself. Also, awfully convenient for the hijackers to hit the one side of the pentagon "under construction" and vacant.

So I ask you, which is harder to believe? 

Any student of logic ( meaning I have taken real classes and studied academically and independently, which I have (critical reasoning, philosophy, ethics, advanced communication)) would know that logic teaches that the easiest solution is most often the correct one. (Occams Razor) Any student of history ( too many classes and independent study to list) would know that countries profit from war, generally to the cost of the general public. So again I ask, which is harder to believe? That America keeps fighting for what's right and keeps being picked on, or that America is just like any other country with corrupt leadership and ruling classes that don't care about the general public, but the matinence of their class and status as world leaders? 

 I don't believe that bush did this . At best I believe presidents are popular figureheads chosen to be the heroes or the scapegoats of the people. Think of them as short term Queen Elizabeth's. There are many more "ruling" positions that work much longer, make many more decisions, set more policy and president, and ultimately are more powerful than president. For instance Supreme Court Judge, congressmen, Lobbyist, CEO, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, World Bank President, American Ambassdor to the UN, and almost countless others. Industry drives policy in America, not politics. Slavery was industry, not politics. Racism was industry, not politics (research origin of KKK as white labor union for our of work southerners after civil war losing jobs to skilled blacks, skilled because of their times as slaves). Women's rights is industry. (higher wages, higher taxes). War is industry. From Sumeria, to Babylon, to Rome, to Germany, to America, to the UN, war is industry. To deny this is to deny history sir. We are not the " city on a hill". Propagandized by American forefathers.The US is the same group of industrious opportunist, pirates , and general warmongers and hell raisers as always.

Last thing. The world has always operated globally. From the Silk Road, to the Atab trade routes, to the Eritian desert traders, to the middle passage, to the trans continental railroads, to the intercontinental airways. Information, ideas, money, power, influence, Wether by foot, animal, machine, or electronically, the rulers of the world have always been in contact.

Why now, in a world where communication and travel have become faster, easier, and cheaper would this magically cease? That's silly. I'm not accessing America of acting singularly against the world, I just refuse to excuse her as some innocent bystander who always fights for right. America has perpetrated many world crimes in its short history of sovereignty. But not of it's own accord. The ruling class is united oh ,simple proletarians. When we fight it's called an argument, when they do it's called war. And we're are the dishes broken against the wall. They just lose arguments.

AMW:

Wars cost money. Wars cost governments money. War makes private interests money...not governments. There is no reason to go to war...especially an economic reason. It is absolute lunacy to postulate that the american government went to ww2 so the economy would recover. Based on what? Every other war to that point cost money. And if that were the case why not go in the 2 years before they did if they were a warmongering type? Foolishness.

The plane that hit the pentagon is suspicious, but only because it appears that the plane was shot down before it hit. All of the reasons you listed still don't explain the type of conspiracy you're alleging. Thousands of people would have to all be complicit and say nothing to no one. Not plausible. A reach. Complete foolishness.And finally...we did not go to war for lack of an apology. We went to war after saying do not kill another American on any kind of ship. They failed. War.To be clear...countries don't generally profit from war. We live in a world where war has not touched our shores. Countries are devastated by war.

As to your war comment: I can go with you as far as saying that war is an industry. Ok fine....people will always try to profit from a situation. The fact remains that war exists because people exist though. And it is most definitely not something to just go into because of money. Id like to think that an American president would take that seriously. According to you though, America is a terrible place to live...our government rapes us on a daily basis and we're stifled as a people. And yet...here we. Im texting you on my phone on a social network from my condo. So terrible.

That last comment was sarcastic...but my point remains. I didn't say America is perfect. It is evolving though and continues to evolve. You can choose to keep bringing up the past or you can learn from it and move forward.

Beast:

The past? We are bombing Libya now! We are discussing eliminating healthcare for those who depend on if now. We are openly funding fetal abortions now. Where do you think this money to fight wars comes from? Company donations? Where do you think the excess goes? Education? C'mon dude. 

I got taught that same patriotic bs in grade school too. Checks and balances and yada. 

Fact: Bush Lost election, still become president

Fact: congress voted no to war, we still went. 

Fact:The Lusitania, among other ships, was not some innocent bystander it was a arms smuggling ship disguised as a passenger cruise. 

Fact: Florida Governor denies funds that would aid disabled children's home assistance and gives bonus to hospitals for admitting more patients rather than move them to home card with there parents. Currently under federal investigation from DOJ. 

Fact: Industry, not the presidents reaction to industry, is what sets the policy for this country. (Stamp Act, Prohibition, Repeal of Prohibition, Missouri Compromise, etc, etc)

Fact: The American People, as well as many others internationally, opposed the wars, yet still we fight. We support the troops, our families, we oppose the war.

Fact: During war times, taxes, both federally imposed to support war, revenue earned from arms sales, taxes collected from manufacturers,taxes collected from soldiers, funds collected from war innovation (automatic weapons, drones, tracking tech, armor, drones), artifacts stolen (see looting in wars and museum sells), rebuilding of decimated cities( see Halliburton) the protection both private and public ALL RAISE REVENUE FOR THE PARTICIPATING AND SUPPORTING COUNTRIES. Wars cost poor and middle classes money, not the ruling classes. 

Fact: Omaha,NE was bombed by the Japenese in WW2. The revolutionary war, the Spanish American war, the french and Indian war, the Seminole wars, the battle of little bighorn, WERE ALL FOUGHT ON AMERICAN SOIL! 

Fact: The illusion of seperation between government and business is false. How many private citizens do you know are govtment officials? How many farmers? How many machinist? How many teachers or professors? Be real...

Fact: Speaking against the government as a government employee is considered treason and punishable by death. Ray enough to keep people quiet with death threats no? ( See the implementation of the Whistleblower Act, also Iran Conta testemonies, also COINTELPRO)

Ww2-People need reasons...I believe that was the original argument here. People were still witnessing the effects of the depression in the forties. The dust bowl decimated the Midwest. With war spreading, and America at that time being a leading exporter, industries such as food, arms, auto, paper, and timber were all grinding to a halt. Without Ww2, America may have rescinded into a deeper and worse depression the the stock crash. Now here comes an opportunity for our of work farmers to earn an income. For food companies to produce for troops. For textiles to make uniforms, flags, rope, parachutes. For metal working and auto to retool factories and get them working. Not just for American soldiers, but worldwide. Here was a chance to get America moving in the right direction again. Of course the people didn't want to fight, but the country NEEDED to fight. Let's not even get into the rise of American Communism led by artist,writers,musicians, (read "poor people aka masses influencers) that was challenging democracy. So much so that many activist groups for minorities , women's, and laborers were communist. The country, socially, was splitting. Sound familiar? 

No man wants to go to war. Wars are not declared by the people, but by the people who rule them. However, rulers do not fight. At least not anymore. They send the people whom they rule. FACT

AMW:

If they wanted to boost the economy, why not join the fight when France was attacked? When Poland was attacked? When Britain, our ally, was attacked? Were we not in a depression at those points too? You keep saying what may have happened had we not gone to war. And yes, it did lift us out of it, but there was no way to know that it would have the effect that it did. Before and after the Civil War, the economy slipped into recession. After the Vietnam war, the country slipped into recession. After WWI the country slipped into recession. Those are also facts.

Beast:

 I AGAIN am not condemning AMERICA alone, I am simply not letting her off the hook because I was born or currently reside here. For the record, I have every intention to leave, I am simply not prepared enough yet for the journey, but am actively doing so. 

I don't wear rose colored glasses when it comes to history. All nations have histories of corruption . All nations have times of great humanity and caring as well. We were taught the sugar, but we refuse the salt. 

A wise man once said that "those who do not know the history are destined to repeat it. " (Edmund Burke)

SO WHY ARE THOSE OF US WHOM CHOOSE TO REMEMBER CONSTANTLY URGED TO SILENCE? 

Another wise man said that "doing something the same way over and over and expecting different results is insanity" ( Albert Einstein)

From time beggining, as there have been kings and rulers, there have been liars and corrupters and innocents that trust them. Why is it different now?

AMW:

Who in this conversation is letting her off the hook? And just for the record, every nation has histories of injustice. Where will you go where your conscience will feel at ease? And Communism? Really Beast?

Beast:

Who profitted from the civil war? Workers, business owners and common folk were killed. Production, import, and exporting stopped. Of course their was a brief halt in economic growth. However, the growth of manufacturing and industry was laid at the foundation of the decimation of southern free labor. What you saw was not a recession but a lag office to infrastructure remodeling. The Vietnam war was the first war where people saw images from the war. This war was not publicly supported, much like Iraqi Freedom. Laws can't get passed without some semblance of public outrage for motivation (ie the Patriot Act). This is why you saw the repeal of the draft after the war. Also, many Americans returned drug addicted and brought this home. The war embarrased America, and list it's tax base. As an added note, how was the war fought in Vietnam? Guerrilla warfare. No tanks, no jeeps. Limited helicopters because of jungle. Less clothing due to tropics. Most money was spent on healthcare for wounded and traumatized soldiers. Also, remember that Vietnam was a lost effort. I never said that it was profitable to LOSE a war. That's just silly. Look at post Ww2 Germany. Or Russia for that matter . To be fair the "recession" of ww1 lasted only seven months, and it was America's first international effort. The Us was neither equipped nor prepared to fight that war, Nor did if have the industry to support its war efforts. Again, with it's export of guns to allies closed, gaining the economic underhand was nearly impossible.

What do you mean Communisn really? That's why we even WENT (publically) to Vietnam!! That's why we are in South Korea! Are you not aware of this? Do the words Red Scare and Cold War ring any bells? Why am I the ludicrous one here for bringing it up?

As far as the "every nation comment" I'm pretty sure I just said that. That is part of the preparation. And unlike most who believe the propaganda, I am not undefeated the American impression that America is the only safe place in the universe in which one can grow old and raise a family. There are like...200 something other civilized nations...

SOOOOOO....

What do you out there in the blogosphere think? Whats your take on the whole thing? Do you agree with Da Beast or with AMW? What was missing? What was great? Let me know!!

WHEN WISE MEN SPEAK, WISER MEN LISTEN

shalom